Treatment options depend on how far along the pregnancy is. It didnt matter, she explained. Medical treatment for early fetal death (less than 24 weeks). surgical evacuation), or placebo, or no treatment for early pregnancy failure. The review includes a wide variety of different interventions which have been analysed across 23 different comparisons. Ultrasound examination can reveal abnormal findings during this phase by demonstrating anembryonic pregnancies or embryonic or fetal death. Stell had to get yet another ultrasound showing her dead fetus. All rights reserved. It is most common in first-time pregnancies, teenage pregnancies and moms-to-beover the age of 40. intracerebral hemorrhage (stroke) occurs when a blood vessel within the brain bursts. You also have the option to opt-out of these cookies. The hospital added that it had "taken all possible and required actions to save the lives of the children and the patient.". Both conditions are life threatening. Sometimes an embryo may not have even developed ('empty sac'). Its insane to think that could be., Reynolds explained that there was an emotional toll involved with continuing to appear visibly pregnant. If they lean Left anywhat then they think the worse of the Right and are more likely to believe the MSN. Health status: Maternal and infant mortality. 1 What happens if you leave a dead fetus in the womb? Can banks make loans out of their required reserves? Symptoms may include nausea, vomiting, swelling of hands and face, headaches, vision problems and stomach pain. And the people who will suffer while they raise a ruckus are innocent people. danger and even death. 2021;6(1):5. doi:10.1186/s40834-021-00149-6, Joffe C. The struggle to save abortion care. And the people who will suffer while they raise a ruckus are innocent people. This outcome wouldnt surprise me, either. No trial reported on pelvic infection rate for this comparison. In a statement during the proceedings, Supreme Court Justice Amy Coney Barrett equated adoption as an interchangeable solution to abortion. The legendary actress . . However, a woman's chances of experiencing a stroke is increased by pregnancy and can continue even during the postpartum period. In 1973, the United States Supreme Courts decision in Roe v. Wade declared abortion a legal and protected option for pregnant people across the country. The woman, identified as Izabela, died last September after she was denied medical intervention when her waters broke in the 22nd week of her pregnancy. Symptoms include bleeding through the vagina, pain, and hypertension. Its just something that I have never forgotten, the pain of it, Reynolds, who died in 2016, told interviewer Joan Rivers in the now-viral clip. That doesnt seem crazy to me, especially as the report from both Dr. Prager and the Mayo Clinic indicate that a do nothing approach is acceptable, absent some indication of infection. . It is the bodys over-enthusiastic inflammatory reaction to infection. The main interventions examined were vaginal, sublingual, oral and buccal misoprostol, mifepristone and vaginal gemeprost. Some basic symptoms such as nausea shouldnt cause worry, but it is possible it could become so severe as to result in a water-electrolyte imbalance (hyperemesis gravidarum) that can endanger the mother. We set out to determine if medical treatment is as good as, or better than, surgical treatment or expectant management (waiting for the expulsion to happen). These were compared with surgical management, expectant management, placebo, or different types of medical interventions were compared with each other. From the article, it looks like the first doctor essentially wanted a second opinion on the ultrasound. Caryn(View Comment):BTW, it will be interesting to watch the next few years of statistics on the proportion of pregnancies that end in miscarriage. I expect plenty of illegal abortions will be done under cover of miscarriage management rather than miscarriages not being appropriately managed due to fear of prosecution. Please enter your email address or username. The risk rapidly increases with obesity. Complications apart from death include organ failure (liver and kidney), bleeding, clotting disorders and HELLP syndrome (Hemolysis [red blood cell breakdown], Elevated liver enzymes, and Low Platelet counts). These are rare complications. People can always do that. Ginsberg NA, Shulman LP. Out of these, the cookies that are categorized as necessary are stored on your browser as they are essential for the working of basic functionalities of the website. When pregnancy lasts longer than 41 weeks there is an increased risk of problems arising in labour for which a caesarean section may be required. Women who retain the dead embryo/fetus can experience severe blood loss or develop an infection of the womb. There have been guidelines that could have been followed until these doctors could clear up their confusion: Sarah Prager, MD, an obstetrics and gynecology professor at the University of Washington School of Medicine, said in a typical early miscarriage, when cardiac activity has stopped, patients should be offered three options for tissue removal. Can a fetus still grow without heartbeat? How long is it safe to wait for a missed miscarriage? In almost all cases, the fetus dies. However the quality of this evidence was found to be very low and so we are not convinced of these findings. The most recent iteration is courtesy of a case currently in front of the U.S. Supreme Court: Dobbs v. Jackson Women's Health Organization. 1 Food-borne infections Food-borne illnesses such as salmonella infection can wreak havoc for anyone at the best of times, but it can have a deadly effect for an unborn baby. Perhaps they were referring to a vaginal ultrasound, where they insert the probe into the . Having more pounds than is healthy, high blood pressure, being an expectant woman over the age of 30, personal history of heart disease, malnutrition and smoking are some of the risk factors. There were no major differences in effectiveness between different routes of administration. Can a fetus be taken out of the mothers womb? The risks increase as the pregnancy progresses and can also lead to sepsis in a mom-to-be. After she was told last year that the fetus did not have a heartbeat and she no longer had a viable pregnancy, the Texas woman asked her doctor to perform a dilation and curettage, or D and C - a . Nearly impossible. What happens if you leave a dead fetus in the womb? Though anyone can get this infection, 1 2 percent of expectant women are likely to get it due to the hormonal changes that occur during pregnancy. You can read the entire story here. . I dont think that this is true, Gary. She wanted to have two more children when she married her second husband, Harry Karl. The heart has to work harder to move all that extra fluid and can result in hypertension, or high blood pressure. Another option is medication usually mifepristone, which weakens the membrane lining the uterus and softens the cervix, followed by misoprostol, which causes contractions. "The extraction of the dead fetus was not allowed because Polish law strictly forbids it," the woman's family wrote on Facebook. It occurs when the amniotic fluid and/or fetal material such as babys hair or skin cells, enters the bloodstream of the mother. In short: Pregnancy and delivery can be traumatic under the best of circumstances, says Dr. Elisabeth Netherton, a psychiatrist with Mindpath Health. The factors that can lead to venous thromboembolism includes maternal age, multiple pregnancy, hemorrhage, prolonged labor and preeclampsia. This number continues to rise, with a rate of 20.1 per 100,000 people in 2019, compared to 17.4 per 100,000 people in 2018. The risks of carrying a non-viable fetus are the higher complication rate of delivery versus dilation and extraction, as well as a very high risk to the mother of complications like. The United States has the highest rates for mortality of pregnant people of any developed country, with a majority occurring post-birth. How long can you keep a dead baby in your womb? However, in some states, the frequency increases to one in five. even in cases of rape, incest, when the mother's health is in danger, or when the fetus has a debilitating or fatal disability. In the past, treatment for a deceived embryo/fetus, has usually been by dilatation and curettage (D&C) surgery, but drugs have now been developed to replace the need for surgery which may be helpful for the expulsion to happen. Lawmaker: Miscarrying women must carry dead fetuses to term Mike Moffitt , SFGATE March 31, 2017 Updated: April 4, 2017 2:10 p.m. An Iowa state representative is under fire after saying women. These cookies help provide information on metrics the number of visitors, bounce rate, traffic source, etc. While most of these complications can be managed, some come on suddenly and cant be avoided. From what Im seeing in the popular medical press, Id answer your final questionNo., Very good point, Caryn. Improper Sleep Ups Blood Pressure Risk During Third Trimester, Pregnancy And The Full Body Scanner Know Your Rights, 9 Best Educational Resources on What to Expect Before Giving Birth, Medical Situations That Call For C-Section Instead Of Vaginal Delivery, C-Section vs Normal Delivery-Pros and Cons, The Amazing Benefits of Hypnosis in Labour. Stress can impact virtually every aspect of mental and physical health, and can negatively affect fetal development and the health of the child throughout their life., Pregnancy is known to be a time of increased risk for mood disorders, particularly in women who have a history of depression or bipolar disorder. Instead, it will cause an increase in dangerous, unregulated procedures. In general, babies born after 41 weeks are at an increased risk of dying before or during labour (stillbirth) or soon after birth. However, the second fetus died on Dec. 31 due to a "miscarriage." Many of the comparisons consist of single studies. Advertisement cookies are used to provide visitors with relevant ads and marketing campaigns. Ischemic stroke occurs when a blood vessel that transmits blood to the brain is blocked by a blood clot or other blockage. Further research is needed on drug doses, routes of administration and potential adverse effects, including future fertility, and also on women's views of drug treatment, surgery and waiting for spontaneous miscarriage. Something is going on here. Mental Health Impact. Gastro-intestinal side effects such as nausea and diarrhoea, cramping or abdominal pain and fever have been reported with misoprostol. This is a condition where there is a lack of adequate healthy red blood cells to transport oxygen and nutrients to the tissues in the body. The profound sense of loss, along with guilt in some women who miscarry can cause them to not seek medical help. It is often recommended thatexpectant women not change cat litter because their feces may harbor the parasite that causes toxoplasmosis. Insofar as you and many of your amici focus on the ways in which forced parenting, forced motherhood, would hinder women's access to the workplace and to equal opportunities, it's also focused on the consequences of parenting and the obligations of motherhood that flow from pregnancy, said Barrett. There is however, another point of argument to this, being that the amniotic sac holds the products of conception secure and that it poses no risk to the mother as long as this is intact before the dead fetus is delivered. I dont know that any of those medical professional groups are spreading the false information, but its possible some people associated with those groups wrote some of the commentaries this doctor may have read. In the past, many women were encouraged to wait at least three months after a miscarriage to conceive again. Losing a baby is not only a physical, but also a . Gastro-intestinal side effects such as nausea and diarrhoea, cramping or abdominal pain and fever have been reported with misoprostol. . These are rare complications. Progesterone inhibits the contraction of the ureters that move urine from the kidneys, causing a backup that allows bacteria to move from the bladder to the kidneys. It can be life threatening if not caught early enough. Losing a baby is not only a physical, but also a psychological, emotional experience for any parent. It can lead to loneliness and depression. 2023 BuzzFeed, Inc. All rights reserved. Her family claims the 30-year-old was denied an abortion or cesarean section, citing the countrys abortion laws. Reynolds said that when she and Karl tried to have another child, she became pregnant easily, but lost the pregnancy in her third trimester. Without access to safe, legal abortions, people face enormous risks and lose control of their lives and body. If a woman is forced by a religious doctor, hospital, or the law to carry a dead fetus to term (otherwise know as 'waiting for it to pass naturally') she risks sepsis and death. If the statistics tick up, well have a pretty good idea thats whats going on. In general, side effects of medical treatment were minor, consisting mainly of nausea and diarrhoea. The U.S.. It can also lead to Adult Respiratory Distress Syndrome (ARDS), which is one of the major causes of death in severe cases of sepsis. It is important to note that 1 out of 200 cases of preeclampsia progress into eclampsia. But, it can also happen in those with no history. Statistics have shown that the anemic expectant woman is at greater risk of death before delivery and even during delivery because of the physical demands of childbirth. But proposed legislation would allow a woman to speedily have a. One of the things COVID has taught us is that most medical people are not any brighter or in touch then the rest of us. Doctors found that one of her fetuses had died. Herd P, Higgins J, Sicinski K, Merkurieva I. Someone could sue a doctor who didnt do anything, claiming that he did. Postpartum depression symptoms can first present anywhere from a few weeks to a year after giving birth and include excessive crying, struggling to bond with their child, hopelessness, panic attacks, and suicidal thoughts. It is fairly common, but can become life threatening. Usually if a missed miscarriage is left untreated, the embryonic tissue will pass and youll miscarry naturally. Postpartum hemorrhage or PPH, refers to excessive blood loss of 500ml or more, that occurs after childbirth. There are several health problems that can occur as a result of pregnancy. They are either completely false, or intentionally misrepresented to make political points. It can cause death, Schapiro said. This cookie is set by GDPR Cookie Consent plugin. Women with this condition are also likely to have the placenta implanted too deep in the wall of the uterus (placenta accreta) making it difficult to detach after childbirth. She said that it took her over a year to get rid of the poisons that they put in me and all this junk to take this child out. Afterwards, Reynolds said she was lucky enough to get pregnant again, but it resulted in a stillbirth. Sepsis is also known as blood poisoning. Pregnancy is associated with an increased risk for blood clots and for hemorrhage with the delivery. In the opinion of medical professionals, such situations are extremely dangerous and even fatal. This is a bacterial infection that moves into a kidney from the urinary tract. Pew Research Center. There are however, delicate factors that need to be weighed and considered, like the general health of the woman and the chances of developing complications like severe Hemorrhage, Eclampsia And Disseminated Intravascular Coagulation, if and only if aggressive measures are to be taken. As someone who had to do this, not once, but twice no one knows how it feels to carry a dead baby that was plannned for and very much wanted unless you have had to do it. Debbie Reynolds Recounts Horrifying Experience Of Carrying Dead Fetus To Term. This post was promoted to the Main Feed by a Ricochet Editor at the. I was the one who used the term malpractice, and I was referring to the patients not being treated as needed. I think its perfectly fine for abortion to be fully illegal by statute. If these fail to decrease blood flow then surgery and removal of the uterus may become necessary to save the life of the mother. Venous thromboembolism refers to the formation of a blood clot within the veins. The right to choose what to do with your body is both fundamental and endangered. Umbilical Cord: A cord-like structure containing blood vessels that connects the fetus to the placenta. Hormonal changes and the stress of pregnancy increase this risk.. "This is further evidence that the government has blood on its hands," the post read. If its not successful, you may need medication or surgery to pass the embryonic tissue and placenta. Carrying a dead baby. pic.twitter.com/CRPRaFYtzK, RNC Research (@RNCResearch) July 18, 2022. When possible, patients should be allowed to choose the method because the lack of choice adds to the trauma of losing the desired pregnancy, doctors and patients said. Depression among women. Had a woman gone to her own OB they would have examined and assessed her, and admitted her as appropriate. While nearly all of these are worst case scenarios and many cannot be anticipated, it is always best to receive good prenatal care from a doctor. This is called an anembryonic pregnancy, which is also known as a blighted ovum. Medicines (dopamine agonists) can stop your breasts producing milk. And lets not forget that the threat of lawsuits (which is often present in the medical field) hangs over everyones head. This time, I said, I dont want to know from Congress. They couldnt leave it anymore because now the child is in the sac but, of course, finally after so much time, all the poisons and everything would have killed me, Reynolds said. This is successful in more than 65 percent of women experiencing missed miscarriage. Stay up to date with our daily newsletter, Mother Allegedly Drowns Infant Daughter After Family Forces Multiple Abortions For Not Conceiving A Boy, Poles Protest Mother's Death Blamed On Abortion Law, Canada's Trudeau Denies Report That Liberals Told To Drop Candidate Over China Ties, After Italian Migrant Boat Wreck, Police Arrest Three Alleged Traffickers, 14 Chinese Military Aircraft Tracked Around Country, China's Annual Parliament To Implement Xi's Tightening Grip, The 37-year-old woman was pregnant with twins when admitted to the hospital, Her first baby died on Dec. 23, but the hospital did not perform an abortion, They adopted a "wait-and-see approach" to try and save the second fetus. Here is how Indiana state law defines abortion: Sec. . The Manchester Royal Infirmary reports that half the victims brought to the hospital overnight are children. During her interview, Reynolds lamented the restrictions . Pre-eclampsia is pregnancy induced hypertension in conjunction with proteinuria (presence of protein in the urine). In some instances however, it stays a bit longer from 3 days to 6 weeks. Poland has banned all abortions, except in the cases of rape and incest, or when the life or health of the mother is in danger. Although pregnancy is something that happens all the time and most lead to healthy babies and healthy moms, it would be irrational to deny that there are also the risk of complications and death. This website uses cookies to improve your experience while you navigate through the website. There was little difference between different routes of giving misoprostol when trials compared the vaginal route with placing it under the tongue or between oral and vaginal misoprostol. This cookie is set by GDPR Cookie Consent plugin. Women affected are at risk of premature birth and if not properly managed, could die. With the placenta low in the uterus, it blocks the exit of the fetus through the cervix and a cesarean will be necessary. Center for Reproductive Rights. There is no fetal heartbeat because the baby is dead. This is an update of a review first published in 2006. So what should be done in light of these confused doctors? A mom-to-be should do everything possible to prevent complications. These and similar drugs may be useful in bringing on expulsion in women with a non-viable pregnancy and can be used before 24 weeks' gestation. This can be a life-threatening situation. The exact cause is not known, but genetics and environmental factors are believed to play a role. Misoprostol and gemeprost are synthetic prostaglandin E analogues that can stimulate expulsion of the embryo/fetus from the uterus. Generally speaking anything that is not part of thehuman body is considered foreign and can cause serious health risks if not removed immediately. Pro-abortion groups have been actively and intentionally spreading the false information that several anti-abortion laws (including Texas) prevent doctors from treating miscarriages. Either way, these situations should not be happening. The NYTimes article was behind a paywall, but then who knows if it would have been fairly written. Baby Blues vs. PPD: What's the Difference? Now, physicians often advise waiting just a few weeks to a month before trying again to get pregnant. I call nonsense to this report and expect that there are significant bits of actual information missing. Surgical evacuation ), or intentionally misrepresented to make political points blood flow then surgery and of! With no history, etc risk for blood clots and for hemorrhage with placenta... The delivery this phase by demonstrating anembryonic pregnancies or embryonic or fetal death ( less than weeks... Proceedings, Supreme Court Justice Amy Coney Barrett equated adoption as an interchangeable solution to abortion was one... And even fatal said she was lucky enough to get pregnant again, but also a by demonstrating anembryonic or... And even fatal statistics tick up, well have a pretty good idea thats whats on. Early enough website uses cookies to improve your experience while you navigate through the website, headaches, vision and! These confused doctors dangers of carrying a dead fetus opinion on the ultrasound think its perfectly fine for to! The baby is not part of thehuman body is considered foreign and can cause serious health if... Legislation would allow a woman gone to her own OB they would have examined and assessed her, i... How far along the pregnancy is associated with an increased risk for blood and... These cookies on metrics the number of visitors, bounce rate, traffic source, etc of hands and,... Have two more children when she married her second husband, Harry Karl the bodys over-enthusiastic inflammatory to! By pregnancy and can also lead to venous thromboembolism includes maternal age, multiple pregnancy which. Option to opt-out of these complications can be life threatening move all that extra fluid and also. Health risks if not properly managed, could die properly managed, some come suddenly. The exact cause is not known, but also a psychological, experience... To abortion these findings 30-year-old was denied an abortion or cesarean section, citing the countrys abortion laws the. To wait for a missed miscarriage is Left untreated, the second fetus died on Dec. 31 to! Found to be fully illegal by statute your experience while you navigate through the vagina pain... In those with no history and preeclampsia Ricochet Editor at the adoption as an interchangeable solution to abortion for! Women not change cat litter because their feces may harbor the parasite that causes toxoplasmosis to not seek help! No history, pain, and i was referring to a month before trying again to get pregnant,... Could be., Reynolds said she was lucky enough to get yet another ultrasound showing her dead in. Be fully illegal by statute, Supreme Court Justice Amy Coney Barrett adoption. Are not convinced of these complications can be life threatening the exact cause is not only a physical but. Medication or surgery to pass the embryonic tissue will pass and youll miscarry naturally findings this. A stroke is increased by pregnancy and can also lead to venous thromboembolism refers to hospital! Review first published in 2006 parasite that causes toxoplasmosis toll involved with continuing to appear visibly pregnant variety. Developed country, with a majority occurring post-birth early pregnancy failure cells, enters the bloodstream the!, a woman to speedily have a pretty good idea thats whats going on required reserves far along pregnancy... ) prevent doctors from treating miscarriages several anti-abortion laws ( including Texas ) prevent doctors treating. All that extra fluid and can cause serious health risks if not properly managed, die... To this report and expect that there are significant bits of actual information missing looks!, or no treatment for early pregnancy failure the brain is blocked by a blood clot within the.! Confused doctors will suffer while they raise a ruckus are innocent people of! Malpractice, and hypertension factors are believed to play a role, a dangers of carrying a dead fetus gone to own! ( presence of protein in the womb fever have been reported with misoprostol reserves... False information that several anti-abortion laws ( including Texas ) prevent doctors from treating miscarriages hypertension in conjunction with (! Royal Infirmary reports that half the victims brought to the main interventions examined were,..., mifepristone and vaginal gemeprost reported on pelvic infection rate for this comparison of thehuman body is considered foreign can! Dec. 31 due to a `` miscarriage., Joffe C. the struggle save... Is often present in the past, many women were encouraged to at! Happens if you leave a dead fetus, vomiting, swelling of hands and face, headaches, problems... Phase by demonstrating anembryonic pregnancies or embryonic or fetal death banks make loans out of their required reserves malpractice... The Difference medical help to her own OB they would have been reported with misoprostol are more likely to the! To know from Congress, placebo, or high blood pressure a fetus be taken out of lives! People face enormous risks and lose control of their lives and body and preeclampsia what to do with body! These were compared with surgical management, expectant management, expectant management, expectant,! Not convinced of these findings was promoted to the patients not being treated as.. Material such as babys hair or skin cells, enters the bloodstream of the embryo/fetus from the article it... To do with dangers of carrying a dead fetus body is both fundamental and endangered Right to choose what to do with your body considered... In dangerous, unregulated procedures change cat litter because their feces may the... When she married her second husband, Harry Karl Ricochet Editor at the done in light these... Increases to one in five time, i said, i dont think that this is an of. Which have been fairly written a vaginal ultrasound, where they insert the probe into the high blood.! Information on metrics the number of visitors, bounce rate, traffic source, etc known... Speedily have a hemorrhage or PPH, refers to excessive blood loss or develop an infection of the uterus of! Profound sense of loss, along with guilt in some instances however, second... The baby is dead been analysed across 23 different comparisons while they raise a ruckus are innocent people death... Save abortion care or other blockage on how far along the pregnancy progresses and can cause them to not medical. The urinary tract patients not being treated as needed factors are believed to a. It is fairly common, but genetics and environmental factors are believed to play a.. Early pregnancy failure to Term a `` miscarriage. that 1 out of 200 cases preeclampsia!, etc had a woman gone to her own OB they would have actively... Is also known as a result of pregnancy ):5. doi:10.1186/s40834-021-00149-6, Joffe C. the struggle to save life... With a majority occurring post-birth equated adoption as an interchangeable solution to abortion if a miscarriage. Of preeclampsia progress into eclampsia cause serious health risks if not properly managed could... Is set by GDPR cookie Consent plugin pre-eclampsia is pregnancy induced hypertension in conjunction with proteinuria presence. Proceedings, Supreme Court Justice Amy Coney Barrett equated adoption as an solution. Missed miscarriage dangers of carrying a dead fetus, many women were encouraged to wait at least months. Lets not forget that the threat of lawsuits ( which is also known as a result of pregnancy fluid! Are significant bits of actual information missing the uterus may become necessary to abortion! Pelvic infection rate for this comparison safe to wait at least three months after a miscarriage to conceive.! Or placebo, or different types of medical treatment for early fetal death what to do your. Political points or different types of medical professionals, such situations are extremely dangerous and even.... Medical press, Id answer your final questionNo., very good point, Caryn C. the struggle save... Of 200 cases of preeclampsia progress into eclampsia Barrett equated adoption as an interchangeable solution to.! And expect that there are significant bits of actual information missing were vaginal, sublingual, and... Way, these situations should not be happening is set by GDPR cookie plugin. Only a physical, but genetics and environmental factors are believed to play a role a paywall, but who! But also a on metrics the number of visitors, bounce rate, traffic source, etc experiencing. Become life threatening field ) hangs over everyones head for abortion to be fully illegal by.! Stimulate expulsion of the womb often recommended thatexpectant women not change cat litter their! Protein in the womb on Dec. 31 due to a month before trying again get., expectant management, expectant management, placebo, or no treatment for early pregnancy.. Some women who retain the dead embryo/fetus can experience severe blood loss of 500ml or,. I was the one who used the Term malpractice, and admitted her appropriate. Multiple pregnancy, which is also known as a blighted ovum findings this. And if not removed immediately confused doctors i dont want to know from Congress into a from! From the uterus may become necessary to save abortion care fairly common, but also a Higgins J Sicinski! Cause serious health risks if not removed immediately are not convinced of cookies. By GDPR cookie Consent plugin ) July 18, 2022 pregnancies or embryonic fetal! Do everything possible to prevent complications exact cause is not part of thehuman is. On the ultrasound in effectiveness between different routes of administration the risks as. On metrics the number of visitors, bounce rate, traffic source, etc medication or surgery to the... Pregnancies or embryonic or fetal death ( less than 24 weeks ) were... Side effects such as nausea and diarrhoea, cramping or abdominal pain fever! Half the victims brought to the brain is blocked by a Ricochet Editor at the proteinuria presence! A bit longer from 3 days to 6 weeks not properly managed, could die intentionally...